When your team does badly then people always look to other clubs to say thats how it should be done.
A classic example of this was Newcastle last season. Yes, they did very well but the squad was too thin, the manager fluked a season and now they get injuries and departures and in nearly as much trouble as us.
So some of our fans who can not now use these as an example shift envious eyes in the direction of Merseyside and especially Everton. We keep hearing how Everton are the model, how they do things right and on a budget. Well, their annual results were out today and they lost £9M last season (LINK).
This includes wages at £63M; a massive increase of £5M over the previous year. Of course with the new TV deal next season and Everton sure to be safe, if the wage bill stays where it is then they will make a lovely huge profit next season. I would guess that their wage bill increased even more over the summer and ours would now be well down compared to them.
They have no rich benefactor, they do sell the odd player to balance books (Rodwell’s sale was the deal of the century for a selling club) but they do spend and they do INVEST.
So actually if we want to follow their pattern we had better start spending and increasing the wage bill. I do not see Everton buying many 4th division midfielders and reserve forwards.
Everton’s results today totally back up the foolishness of Lerner’s current policy.
You seem to forget though that Moyes started by buying the likes of Cahill, Jagielka, Lescott etc from lower clubs. Lambert trying to do something similar I’d imagine.
Tell me if i am wrong but were not Cahill & Lescott playing for clubs in the lower reaches of the PL league at the time not league one two or championship.
Cahill came from Millwall who were in the first divison.
Jagielka from Sheffield Utd who were in the first division at the time.
Lescott from Wolves who were also in the first division.
I thought you followed football Terry?
What like Cahill from Millwall, Jageilka from Sheffield Utd when they went down, they also have a Belgian striker/Midfielder upfront…bought Wigan’s best player at the time (Baines), they also signed Beckford from Leeds.
So I’d say we’ve just tried to do it too quickly, I’m sure ill be pulled apart on this negative site but Villa need to try and rescue this season, and build on it, whether we will all have the patience and fortune for tis to happen who knows.
Missed the point though totally, they were never afraid to spend, when they brought Cahill it was not for £1M from Chesterfield was it ?? from memory £2M and that with fee inflation is more like £6M now.
The point is that people hold them up as an example but they did buy big when needed and spend large wages. Moyes did not just do it all with so called bargain buys.
So we have never bought big..insane…I’m not here backing our club to the Hilt, save that for match days but they’re not wrong in their policy, and by the way Bowery looked a better bet than Ireland when he came on against Wigan..remind me again about big named players.
Remind me what was the score in the Wigan game, oh yeh…
Nuff said.
you’re an idiot. If this is an attempt at statistical analysis it is pathetic. A guess at our spending and an isolated 9m loss means absolutely dick all. This totally fails to acknowledge that outside the top few spenders and Southampton we have spent the most this year (21m) and that McLeish spent 20m. It ignores the fact that the Baggies have put a team together with a budget never really pushing past 6m (transfers) a window. To say ‘Randy’s current policy’ as if you have the merest grasp of it is ludicrous. Yeah you watch the players come in and out and make assumptions, fact is we still spend too much, we still have three managers mistakes (GIven, n’Zog, Makoun, Hutton, Warnock even possibly Bent) and we DO invest loads, we just never use it well, as loads of youngsters bulking up the already youngsters this year showed. Idiots who refer to Randy ‘milking’ the club of it’s assets (like A Young, bought for 10m sold for 18m, replaced by a 10m N’Zog) have no grasp of what they are talking about, and what we need is CLEVER USE OF A SENSIBLE BUDGET, NOT SIMPLY THROWING MORE CASH AT A BONFIRE.
Dan you have upset him, he’s done a runner.
I can’t be upset for making a rational argument. My tone was, however, pretty pathetic and for that I apologise ianrobo.
Amen.
Finally, someone with a firm grasp of reality.
Here’s one you might find interesting and I hope its a buy Tom Huddleston to AVFC
Perfect! A strong midfielder with premier league experience. Or is this the next episode of spurs take the mick out of villa
Not sure about balancing the books, all the news I have heard over the years is they are that far in debt over 100m to Kenwright and have been trying to find a buyer for the last 5 years I know off and have no chance as this dedbt is never reduced. Trying to break top 4 I suppose to pay off majority of the debt to make it more attractive, but he keeps adding to the debt every year in trying to do so. Which is what Lerner did, but pulled out, Kenwright just keeps selling an odd player to try and keep it down when starts to spiral. Your right good policy if you are chairman who understands football and a manager who is capable of unearthing talent and selling on one or 2 at the right time. They have found another as well, signed from Bradford, a lad named green. Signed his first professional contract recently at 17 and is already training with the first team, mind you not cheap if hits his potential they paid the highest price for the 15 year old in english footy a fee rising to 2m
Not sure about balancing the books, all the news I have heard over the years is they are that far in debt over 100m to Kenwright and have been trying to find a buyer for the last 5 years I know off and have no chance as this dedbt is never reduced.
It’s less than half that amount numb nuts.
Villa are NOT far off it this year, you have been unlucky in a lt of games and have some real quality, just no depth. In our (Everton) early Moyes days we bounced chronically between top and bottom half of the table, Villas like us are a real traditional football club, what you need to ensure is that the fans stay right behind the team. You will be just fine and Lambert has huge potential.
As I’ve mainly let my fury at this shambles of an argument get the better of me in my last post, let me explain the Everton situation to you simply. You hire a good manager, you set up a good scouting network. You give your manager a budget. If he wants numbers he signs 8 1m pound players. Huzzah he has a squad (LAMBERT). If he wants quality after buying enough to have a feasible Prem squad (not sure we do yet, still not enough players for injuries) you can then spend next years budget on quality. Hence once he knew his squad was well stocked Moyes could splash his full 10m on Fellaini. IF VILLA DO THAT, AS LAMBERT AND RANDY HAVE PLANNED, next year we may buy two 10m pound players with our budget, or maybe one 20m pound player. Or maybe 4 5m pound players. DO YOU GET IT NOW? A BUDGET? Or do you still want Lerner to be an idiotic money bonfire, throwing away his family cash on ungrateful fools of fans like we sometimes possess.
One major flaw in your argument-”You hire a good manager, you set up a good scouting network.”
Where have the good managers and the good scouting network been since MON left? GH? AMC? Good managers? Lerner employed them and let them lose with his JP Morgan Palladium Card.
Not many on this particular site agree (tends towards the reactionary and trigger happy), but many believed Houllier would have started something decent. Was trying to remove trouble makers, convinced Bent and Walker to join and had lined up Cabaye on a free and Xherdan Shiqiri for 6m. So I’d say him. Where McLeish came from I’m not sure, most likely Lerner being convinced by a man who talks a good game without possessing a crumb of managerial ability. Villa fans DEMANDED Lambert, so surely after a few years of messing we have the man to build the next dynasty?
Dan personally I think we should have stuck with Gary Mcallister just for the sack of continuity, AMC just what was that all about?
Sacking Lambert even if heaven forbid we go down is just not an option, who would we get in Big Mick? Neil Warnock? no thanks.
I agree on both fronts. Though I would have liked to have seen Houllier accept a lesser role, moved upstairs with a broader remit and GMAC or possibly even KMAC team looking after the players. Saying it doesn’t work in England is a farce, if it works somewhere it can work here, you just need a manager and director who accept their roles. As to Lambert, the signings of Vlaar and Benteke, plus the wise decision of hiring Henke to find those cheap quality additions means that over 4 years Lambert could build something. Whether we go down in the short-term is a problem we would have had to have dealt with whoever our manager was simply because the squad isn’t good enough. This summer we either got a Redknapp/MON type who blows money on ‘safe’ players, who then prevent you from moving forwards (due to a high wage bill for ability) or you sign a young manager gambling on youth and cheaper imports, We have done the right thing. If we sign a midfield destroyer, get Sinclair on loan or some pace on the wings (Aubameyang perhaps) and maybe a centre back (or just Vlaar Dunney and Clark moves into DM again), we will get out of this mess. As it was Lambert had little time and didn’t know from a pre-season that what most of our players lack isn’t skill but the balls to win games and not let their heads drop. It’s not good but it’s fixable and we don’t need headless chickens demanding instant gratification.
McLeish was hired on the advice of Alex Ferguson.
Well thanks a bunch fergy anytime you want someone to shit your doorstep, well fergy I’m your man.
BWS, u do his back door I’ll do the front. Maybe robo can do the conservatory door.
I agree, all us experienced Villans know this has to start from the core again. Lambert was only given 20m to bolster the ranks of a very threadbare squad. Once he has bolsterd it more this window and in the summer we will have stability, then we can push on with right quality player WHO wants to play for this great club instead of just taking the money and the piss . I agree with Lambert and agree with the plan, and I am convinced even if we go down ( which I believe we wont) they will not deviate from it. I for one have never wanted cash to be chucked away for the sake of it as per previous managers. In Lambert I trust
And there’s the rub Dan since MON until now we have bought quantity not quality. Lambert is following suit ie he would rather buy 10 players at 1m than 2 at 5m. We have the quantity average joes at the club but we need at least 4 quality players now
Ian, are you back for the transfer window? You crazy, obsessive posts during the Jan and the summer are the only reason 90% of people started coming to this blog. Any mad ideas about incoming deals? Plane schedules? Meetings at the Bellfry old chap?
Agree with that.. the transfer speculation was great..
The problem since ian has left is that too many articles get posted so you can’t get a proper flow of conversation going..
Well lionheart, we did put that point forward did we not.
Agreed, Lionheart/Bill, that is a problem, but where we differ slightly from Ian, is that it’s been our intention to get as many different views out there as possible.
I don’t think we realised how many submissions come in though, tbf and putting up as many as we can does make things a little cluttered.
There’s also the time factor.
Where I’m currently off work, I see stuff that I think (rightly or wrongly) is worth debating and will post it.
That will change as from next week, as I’m back at work, so the number of posts will be drastically reduced and probably back to a couple a day.
I take it you wouldn’t be interested in forums then? as that’s something we’re contemplating.
I might stick a poll up asking the question.
Oh, I forgot.
I loved Ian’s more outrageous approach to speculation too and wish he’d do some more, but the plain fact is he can’t because of reasons that many aren’t aware of, which I won’t go into.
I’m not at all criticizing anon in any way, in fact this forum is one of the best, I can fully understand that you and two other saved this site and we owe you that. I think it was two days ago 4 came up at once, you would be replying to one topic to find thats ended and looking around to the next post, or post’s. we all are anxious for news and Villa news of transfers and your on the ball, I know Ian mostly winds people up by being blunt and have to say he’s Villa all the way, you take it with a pinch of salt. anon3 keep the good work up…….
Agreed.. the forum is good and people are allowed to say it as it is without anyone getting offended.. just a couple a day would be better unless its a new player link
Now please someone start a thread saying we have bid 10M for the next Zidane so we can all get excited for a while
Everton invest wisely. Yes they have at times bought players from the lower leagues and integrated youth, but they have always had an element of experience in the side, which is something that lambert has completely neglected. They also seem to hold on to their better players for longer and sign them up on long contracts to maximise sale value. For example the money they got for rodwell was daylight robbery. Also, I’m sure their board is quite astute as opposed to our resident muppet Faulkner.
fair point but when people on here deride Villa as a selling club they seem to ignore Everton selling Lescott, Rodwell and Rooney, Spurs selling Van der Vaart Berbaov and Modric etc etc. The experience point is true. That said, I watched everton last night and it strikes me that as individuals there are not many stand outs. Fellaini and Baines but most of the others are not exceptional. They seem organised and play some decent stuff, and work hard to win the ball back. We seem to stand off other teams a bit too much and let their players get their heads up and pick passes. not sure why.
We’d get more value for money from the players we do buy if someone who knew what he was doing was brought in to overhaul the medical side of things. It’s unlikey the amount of injuries we’re getting are just bad luck.
i’m with those that believe that what we are doing is the right thing. Am getting real sick of the whole “experienced” thing. Everyone of you harping this tosh about.. a question for you. Are you really going to sit there and tell the world that in three seasons you haven’t hurled god knows how much abuse at Dunne, Warnock, Hutton, Ireland, Given, Nzogbia and yes, i’ve sat in the Holte and heard Petrov get hammered whilst still playing for not cutting it at times. Most of you hated the “experienced” guard, hell most of the managers have too as the last three have tried to ship them all. So you hate, the experienced lot, and you hate the new lot. Brilliant. Makes it easier doesn’t it, you never actually have to stick your neck out and believe in anything. Life’s easier when you always get to be the one who gets to say “i told you so.”
There is however a way for you lot to be happy. Buy an x-box, Fifa, and build the team of your dreams. Its the only way any of you will be happy.
Me personally,i agree that what we are doing is the right thing for the future and tend to agree with Dan’s comments, and i think Lambert knows what he’s doing. Also thought the Everton fan had a good point. i think we’ll be fine this season, and after last, hell at least its good to be on a rollercoaster of unpredictability rather than the garbage that went before. Sit back and enjoy the ride.
You need a balance of experience and youth in every side. Experience doesn’t necessarily mean over the hill players, its players that can provide leadership and guidance in testing times or when confidence is low, just as it is now.
We have gone from one extreme to the other, and neither is the right policy. Everyone who looks at our line up says the same thing, wheres the experience. And of course in your world they are all wrong and you are right
I never said outright that i was right, i said i think it is, and i’m nowhere near arrogant enough to think “oh i said it, therefore its gospel” and i wasn’t attacking you. I just get fed up with people who all call for one thing, then when they get it and don’t see immediate success they moan the other way. It’s dull and boring.
We may not have the experience. My thoughts above may be wrong, but i’ll tell you this for nothing, a bunch of boring dullards sitting aroung garbing on about it as a means to win an argument, justify a bad run, or somehow con themselves into thinking that if they were in charge they’d do better even though noone with any sway in the matter, cares about what they’re saying or is even listening to them, is utterly pointless. They run the club, you either wach or you don’t. No one forces you to!
The Villa are what they are, and what they are is what Lambert wants with what Lerner gives him. Get on board and go with it cos nobody is going to change a damn thing based on either of our opinions
ah, anyone blues reading this remeber when a large section of everton fans were calling for kenwrights head after villa paid (how much was it?) for Darren Bent?
Also I see talk of rodwell lescott etc but nothing on downing or young. I think downing for £20m beats the hell out of rodwell for £12m
It would be nice to get Rodwell on loan until the end of the season
Trust me mate it wouldn’t. You wouldn’t get more than 5 games out of him and that’s before we get onto what he actually does on the pitch. Can’t explain rodders so much potential…..
Everton have not spent anywhere near what we have, they have not had the financial problems we have, they always have a plan b unlike us and you rarely see them buying players who then wait for there contracts to end like we have.
Everton do need to spend more on infrastructure which is the only thing we have done that is right, our academy atm is churning out Championship/League one players which have a sell on value that helps the academy pay for itself, the academy is a success but its not yet a world beater.
Both clubs could learn from each other but for me Everton are the better ran club because of consistency on the field.
i think you’ll find evertons academy is a grade A after being totally modenised a few years ago (true we then sold it and rent it back, doh)
Don’t mention that our Academy is a success, it’s totally crap apparently according to some of the bile being spouted yesterday.
I think that it has produced more current league players and Internationals than any other now, but that’s not worth having, is it ?
The way that Moyes has conducted affairs at Everton are probably similar to the way that Lambert would like matters here, and PL will have far far greater resources at his disposal, once we get on an even keel.
I think that Lambert wants to build a solid foundation, trim the fat, and then start to strengthen with more Academy promotions and astute purchases.
He certainly won’t go down the MON trodden path of mediocre rubbish in for large fees, with no sell on value, on top wages.
Robo, you seem to fail to comprehend that the reason that we cannot pay big moeny for transfers and pay high wages, is because we’ve been doing that under Lerner for six years (£200m), and it hasn’t worked.
Can you blame him for trying something different ?
An idiot is someone who carries on doing exactly the same thing expecting a wholly different outcome.
You seem keen for us to buy more Premiership experienced players for high fees on ‘competitive’ (I read high) wages. See sentence above.
I think the problem Vaze is that it is tough medicine that has left us in a perilous position. Lerner could afford to let Lambert buy a bit of experience/proven quality if he wanted to to help ensure survival without the need to spend as much as before. I honestly can’t tell whether Lerner is forcing this as fast/hard as Lambert is implementing it. Lerner was a fan of Bent (based on his “mailman” comments) but he seems to be allowing Lambert to cut him loose. Maybe Lambert is pushing the “get the high earners out agenda” to the limit to get his own team as fast as possible.The problem is in selling the exiting players and getting a decent sum to reinvest. I just hope Lambert gets it right.
With you all the way on that.
Lambert knows that he has a squad of decent youngsters. Nothing more, nothing less at the moment.
Some of those youngsters undoubtedly have a lot more potential and can become established if not top Premiership players with games under the belt, and good leadership, both on and off the pitch.
Can they keep us up this season ? Hmm. It’s nervy, but Lambert seems convinced.
In an ideal world, I reckon the manager would offload Bent, Given, Hutton, Warnock, Dunne, Holman, Ireland, N’Zogbia, Delph, Makoun and Delfouneso at the drop of a hat.
I actually think he’d be playing Petrov if he were fit, and I think that he sees the merits in keeping a Villa man in Gabby.
The trouble is, he can’t get rid as easily done as said.
And when you look at the list of a full side like that, you can see the reluctance that Mr Lerner has in ‘buying a few experienced players on competitive wages’ as so many glibly state is required on here.
True again. On the flip side though. The list of discards would almost make a team that managed well would survive in the Premiership. As you say, Lerner has every right to consider the investment/ongoing cost here. It’s easy spending someone else’s money. We all take a bit more care over our own
I certainly don’t think the academy is crap, but I do tend to think it’s over-rated Vaze.
It’s currently rated at no.1 in the game, but if that’s so, why do we never knock out a real top notch kid? You know, the sort who the top clubs are clamouring after?
I suspect the rating is more down to meeting this modern KPI stuff, rather than looking at the actual quality it produces, although of course that’s always subjective.
Certainly, Southampton seem to have done a better job to me (Bale, Walcott and Oxlade-Chamberlain spring to mind).
It’s just an opinion mate
Bill, you don’t owe us anything mate.
We took it over for selfish reasons in that we like it too and just didn’t want it to fold.
I don’t know that it is overrated.
Cahill and Barry have won a European Cup and league title respectively, and we have produced many players that are playing either for us, or other league teams.
Of course, we don’t buy young players in on big fees so it’s only what we scout out or develop from local talent, but I think that it is effective.
Having been up Bodymoor and experienced the coaching at junior matches, it is a professional set-up, make no bones about it.
To ‘knock out a top notch kid’ these days, you usually have to buy them in or spot them at a very young age, but we do seem to make the most of what we have, and it will surely be self-sufficient imminently, if not already.
I was quite shocked yesterday how readily many were happy to label it as shit as all the current crop are crap Championship players at best.
That may not have been posted after the win at Anfield when what, seven of the squad were Academy graduates, and goes to show how reactionary too many on here are.
Barry came from Brighton’s youth system not ours.
Just ask yourself what other PL teams Bannan, Albrighton, Lichaj and co would get into. Perhaps Reading but nobody else, definately nobody in the top half thats for sure.
So you think it’s best to scrap it ?
Weimann, Clark, Baker, Williams, Gardner and Burke are all players that I think can offer a lot to the club.
Bannan may be moving on for several million, and those that you mention played and won at Anfield and would be welcomed into many Premiership squads.
Who knows if they would develop more rapidly to a higher level if they weren’t playing alongside other raw recruits rather than seasoned top level pros.
To build a foundation in promoted players and add to them sensibly from the transfer market is a common sense way forward.
Those that are not good enough will still command decent fees from other clubs, look at Luke Moore, Liam Ridgewell and Peter Whittingham off the top of the my head.
I was just disappointed that many suggested that to say we have an excellent Academy was a joke, I wonder how many have been ?
I have noticed that we have an obsession in regards to lamberts reluctance to sign experienced premiership footballers, now i am certain in the summer we were in for Clint Dempsey who is a very experienced Prem footballer. This attempted signing does not fit into what the fans and the media have built up as to who lambert wants.
Dempsey is hard working and i have never seen a game where he does not give 100%, so i am guessing that lambert is interested in expereinced players but only ones who are hard working and talented as well as the young and hungry prototype
Agreed.
I think that Lambert has a set blueprint for success that he has waited to install as a manager at a reasonably large club, and won’t take two steps back to take one forward in buying a player that doesn’t come into his thinking.
Whether Lambert is truly a very good manager on the up that will deliver success from his game plan, or an over optimistic individual that cannot see the frailty in the current set-up, time will tell.
How many of our experienced players fit into this mold
He’s giving Delph and Holman a chance, even Ireland.
That would seem to be about it.
It’s clear a fair few are going to be on their way now or in the Summer, it’ll be interesting to see who he brings in.
Planning for 2014/15 is fine and dandy as long as it doesn’t mean getting relegated in 2012/13.
The whole Dempsey thing was a smokescreen by the club and you seem to have fallen for it. It was simply a move to convince Genk to sell Benteke as it appeared we were looking elsewhere, and it allowed Lerner to appease the fans with a name, when he fully knew Dempsey would never come here.
Please don’t be so naive
You are possibly right i know Faulkner is good friends with Fulham so it could have been done to drive the price up, or Lambert wanted him in our team as he is hard working. I think i felt the board were upto no good at the time but i cant see how it is beneficial for a club to go in for a player knowing he is going to turn you down so flatly and so publicly, i thought if anything it made our board look incompetent
So we didn’t have offers for Clint Dempsey and Adam Johnson accepted ?
You seem to know more than the club itself Villain1.
I think that Lambert would have loved to have signed Dempsey. What’s naive in thinking that ?
We made an offer knowing Dempsey would never come here, and why would he when Spurs were interested. Even a move from Fulham is a huge step downwards nowadays. But it put pressure on Genk to sell (as Benteke was also threatening to strike at the same time) and made Lerner appear interested. What is so hard to understand about that Vaze.
And I don’t believe we ever bid for Johnson, and I’m glad we didn’t- he is an [edit] -you no I can’t allow that mate (oohahpaulmcgrath)- with a terrible attitude.
This seems way too intelligent for Villa. I would be impressed if it was a genuine smokescreen though!
So true villain 1. Classic Ellis trick when we used to be linked with a big name at the end if the season that we had no chance getting so season ticket sales increased
Isn’t the fourth division midfielder our best one, and why all the tears about Bowery ianrobo? HE IS THE FIFTH CHOICE STRIKER!!! We also spent 7million on Benteke, remember, who looks pretty good. Selective hysterics once again.