Stats can be used to prove any point in any way.
when you look at them then other factors have to be considered. The relative strength of the league at the time, the squad strength of the team the manager inherits, position in the league etc.
So when you look at Mcleish’s first 23 games in charge actually they are not too bad are they ?
Is that as bad as we think, do we have a stronger squad than that, is the league particularly weak this season ? those are all points up for debate as well as the raw figures. What stands out is just how good John Gregory’s first lot of games were. He of course at one stage was the top of the league and we were looking good with Dublin in stunning form for a league title but of course it fell away as things do. That celebration at the the old Dell in retrospect was very stupid and premature.
So what does it say about Mcleish, has he been OK and under unfair criticism ? Or in fact should he have done much better given the squad he took over was far better than many in that list. Yes I have avoided mentioning one name, that debate has been done to death and the next 23 were a damm slight better, will Mcleish’s ?
Aston Villa News 24/7
If you think about the squad that AM picked up, I’d say his results are utter shit.
But not quite as shit as Houllier atm, who was an even bigger total disaster.
I’ll leave it at that, simply because I’ve heard AM being compared to MON in his first season.
What a joke that is, given the starting positions!
Hmm. Sorenson, Mellberg, Laursen, Angel, Barry, swapped Baros for Carew at the start of first season? I’m sure there were others on top of that so I would argue that there wasn’t a huge difference between the starting squads.
He swapped Baros for Carew in the middle of the season, Laursen was injured for the first part of the season also. Sorensen was dreadful and Angel was way past his best by then. Not to mention the fact ONeill took over in August.
Im no O’Neill fan but you cant compare his and McLeishs records.
OK you’re right about Baros. Sorenson dreadful? Don’t think so. Angel may have been past his best but wasn’t that supposed to be O’Neills strength, getting the best out of ordinary players? i just don’t see that McCleish has done a poor job in the circumstances. His record is comparable to O’neills across the same period. That is born out by the stats. Give him £140M across the next 3 years and compare the records then is the only way to compare the two (probably need more now that Man City are established). That’s not going to happen though is it? Don’t get me wrong, I am not claiming McCleish as the next messiah. i just don’t see an alternative to the current strategy, and to claim that you will protest against the manager but support the team is just daft.
Our results have been awful. We have beaten WIgan, Blackburn and Bolton- the three teams most likely to go down (2 of which we still have to play away). We just about beat Norwich, still conceding 2 goals. We beat a 10 man Wolves, who should have been 4-1 up at half time. Our only decent result came at Chelsea. We were knocked out of both cups early doors. Not only that, 90% of the football we have played has been utter rubbish. Mcleish has got to go.
Yes, they are.
Considering the squad he has at his disposal and the fact he had a full pre season, his record is AWFUL,
Factor in the style of football we are seeing aswell and that makes it even worse.
Does anybody really think he is going to turn things around? History doesnt favour him.
McLEISH OUT – PROTEST SUNDAY – UP THE VILLA!
The squad? really? How many of that squad are really top notch? Darren Bent and Shay Given are probably the only ones who might fit in the squad of the top 6.
Now tell me when the style of the football was last good. Maybe the season we beat everton 3-2 on their patch under MON.
And as for the protest. It will be a pathetic effort by a handful of fans. Remember the uproar when he was appointed. And how many turned up for the protest?
Anyway, at least we agree on UP THE VILLA!!
The style of football? What exactly is so wrong with it. Its been absolutely fine/actually quite good recently so that argument is starting to move towards invalid. But you’ll all still use it, because everyone associates mcleish with shit football. If we played like barcelona, you would all still suggest that we play shit football.
Oi you coward. Why don’t you put your name to this stupid protest instead of hiding behind a website. Or are you too scared of people actually facing you up a telling you your wrong.
If you want this to happen you need to be held accountable for you actions, as AMC is himself. And I don’t see him hiding.
Coward.
lol how is AMC accountable for his actions mate.. he gets away with blue murder players out of position slating youner players in media but saying hutton and warnock are good.. its result based business simple as 6 wins no home win since november 5th thats all i see
(Edit – people can find out if they want to)
I know him ….
How am I hiding? I have been on talksport and Radio WM.
Can I ask what you think the alternative is? Not being provactive but I really am interested.
I don’t think it helps to get down to personalities. Individuals have the right to their views. As CHurchill said, I disagree with you but I will fight to give you the right to say what you think. I am not a conservative but I agree that we argue about views, not people.
As to alternative. There is no alternative. Lerner will not spend money, he has lost a quarter of a billion and got nothing. McLeish will not be sacked. But the reports suggest he may have gone to Paris to talk to arabs. So the club may be sold. We will be the last to know. And Arabs have even less time for fans than Americans do.
Everyone knows the situation, we may go the longest spell without a home win in the premiership’s history, if we don’t beat man city on sunday. Splits do not help. Back the team, even when they play badly. They are all we have. In the future, things will have to change. But now is now. And if you think it is bad now, you obviously were not on the witton lane end the day we got relegated to the third division. I was. WIth another 12,500 people scattered round villa park. It can happen again. close ranks, we are in a relegation fight and we need to stick together. Close season will be different. Keep your powder dry
trevor Fisher.
All I have to say on the subject of mcleishs first 20odd games is look at what Pardew has been able to do with a worse squad at Newcastle… Why have they been able to do it and not us? – spirit, amongst the squad and the supporters. A significant percentage of the Villa support don’t want mcleish – so he’s onto a loser from the start. Also his method of management seems to be ‘blame’, blame anyone and everyone except himself – the latest example of this is him going to the press to suggest that Gabby aught to be doing yoga to stop getting injured. FFS! the bloke may be right, but surely the time and the place to deal with that sort of thing is not in the press, but as manager to staff at what for them is at work. And while all this is going on we have slipped form being a big club to being a cash-strapped also-ran and selling club.
Sorry, but we will never be able to improve from our current lower mid-table mediocrity (with a hint of danger) until we employ a manager that can re-invigorate the squad and the whole club (us lot included) – mcleish’s first 23 games may not have been terrible, but it’s not good enough for Aston Villa Football Club!
sals that is the best post on here for a while good read and bloody true. He does deal with things in press he did same with albrighton after everton game shame he did not do same with hutton warnock and defenders. clarke is not midfielder ireland is not wide player heskey has just not got anything to offer gabby was told he we would not be played out wide woe and behold.. Its just one thing after another in fact apart from the emergence of gary gardner can any villa fan give me a psotive from this season please.. a genuine one that is
Pardew seems to be doing a great job at Newcastle. But he got fired from West Ham. Did you want him as manager when he left West Ham? What did their fans think then? Why didn’t he achieve at West Ham what he has done at Newcastle?
I’m not sure McCleish does much other than point out obvious shortcomings. He has admitted to making tactical mistakes in formations and approach. He can’t be held rtesponsible for individual defensive errors that have cost us points repeatedly.
If he is right about Gabby what is the issue? It’s not a negative comment on the player. So why try to use it to make a point?
I’m obviously setting myself up for a torrade of abuse from fellow fans, but it’s something I’ve been thinking about over the last couple of days surrounding this protest.
By my reckoning McLeish is matching Gerard Houllier’s peformance from last season (28 points from 24 games). It’s far from impressive, but AM has been doing this without Ashley Young and Stewart Downing, arguably the two biggest assets to our team last season.
Any realistic fan should realise that this campaign isn’t, nor has it ever been, about pushing forward, it’s been about remaining strong whilst balancing the books. I was as annoyed about that as any other fan, but I started to understand why it was being done.
For me, Lerner is stablising the books with a view to spending in the summer. If I’m wrong, I’ll happily accept that and apologise.
McLeish hasn’t had the money of O’Neill (£150m approx) or Houllier (£30m approx), had to spend, but he is still keeping us around mid-table.
I think some fans are stuck behind this vale of ‘he was the manager of Birmingham City’ and aren’t seeing he is probably the right man for the job given our current situation. I understand why they feel like this but I don’t think it’s the right attitude to have right now.
We need a manager who can keep things ticking along by utlising some of our youth players and making the best of our current assets and McLeish is doing that.
Protesting on Sunday will not gain anything and could even unsettle the team and other fans ahead of one of the toughest games we will have all season.
think you will find the team is already unsettled.. he has spent 10 million n zogbia 4 million given and jenas 40000 grand a week on.. the football has been inept only last few weeks its shown improvement and i mean as improvement nothing good..totally understand why the money reasons behind it but how can you go from martinez style of football one day to ecks the next thats what i dont get .. So in the case of gh and him lets see where the final game sees us and the points we get…..
perfectly reasonable. McLeish is about as good/bad as Houllier but without the spending. Fans should also note Houllier had the Bent money, and BEnt at the start was up for it. Not a lot of energy this season. The anti McLeish lobby need to compare like with like and recognise that he does not have any slack, he has to cut spending.
That’s the facts, as is the £5m tab that would come if he was sacked now.
If being abused is the effect of facing the facts, then so be it. McLeish is trying to cope in a situation he has not made, and cannot be judged till the summer when he might have some money. In the meanwhile, he has a big job with underperforming players and dreadful home form, so fans can decide to make a bad situation worse by protests or getting behind the team. Against QPR we got behind the team and it was good. More on Sunday please. The end of the season is the time for judgement.
trevor fisher
Very interesting points Ian with a fair bit of common sense but based on the current record, which is all we have to go on, he is our 8th worst manager of all time and the worst for 25 years so if things don’t improve then there is plenty of cause for long term concern. However it is academic as it certainly looks like we wil have the same manager next season and it is still too early too judge. By the run up to Christmas 2012 after a full transfer window and pre season we will know for sure whether or not he is our next relegation manager, another also ran or our top 4 hero. Ahem.
I am not a fan of mcleish, But I think he can do well over time, he needs to get rid of dunne, Collins, warnock, jeans was a waste of money, makoun if he’s not gona b used. Our problem isn’t mcleish, our attacking play has improved alot , our problem lies at the back & central midfield , which I’m sure he will sort out in the summer, if he dosnt sort them out by next January then I’m afraid he must go & we need to look elswer , but for the time being I think he’s been treated unfairly & has not done too bad with the resources & injuries we have had
Are Mcleish’s first 23 games so bad? Are you kidding me. C’mon the answer is a resounding “YES”. But are the players the real fault? “I should say so”. No protest will do anything constructive when the chairman is a dictator from the land of the free indeed………. In Mcleish’s defence, he’s had his hands tied and using his Blues days is just pathetic when that team were shite too!
AMC is a moron! And anyone who disagrees with that comment can join him in holding that label. He has repeatedly shown that he has no idea of how to strategically approach a game , what to do when things go wrong in a match or how to utilize our squad to the best of it’s ability. Not to mention his lack of balls when it comes to dropping players who perform poorly. Sheer luck has kept us towards mid-table and that can’t last forever.
If you disagree with this please try to construct a supported argument to put me right, because I could talk for hours about how he is going wrong!
Let’s start with the fact that you have demonstrated that you don’t understand the meaning of moron. It doesn’t make you a moron but you do run the definition pretty close. Tell me about your strategy, but do do me a favour and back it up with illustrations where you have put your superior knowledge into use. Tell me where our sheer luck has been demonstrated. tell me who the wonderful, proven alternatives to poor performers are.
Go on. I can’t wait.
OK; by the Oxford-English he isn’t a moron (stupid person, dolt, mildly retarded) but I hope you aren’t advocating that AMC has a deep and varied football knowledge?
Strategically (not mine, AMC’s) we are constantly out of shape and behind the play; two or even three defenders are often pulled out of place to close down one man (particularly on the wings), leaving space in behind; the midfield doesn’t close the ball carrier down quick enough and regularly sit on their heels waiting for the ball (and man) to come to them (watch Keane wave his arms around trying to get them to move up the pitch and help out the front line – he finds it astonishing how lazy we are); we regularly play the long ball to Bent, who isn’t a target man, because nobody drops short to collect or because our movement is so poor we are ridiculously easy to mark; players consistently struggle to make plays of more then 4/5 passes because we are too quiet on the pitch and again because movement is too limited; creativity doesn’t exist and the players almost seem fearful (excluding Bannan) of attempting creative passes, possibly because they would then have to work to get the ball back?
Alternatives wise; we could use the rest of the squad? They may be young but they surely couldn’t do much worse than the dross some of our players exhibit. Even if they did, we’d then know for certain that they aren’t good enough either.
And as for luck; well most of the games we have been victorious in have been due to missed opportunities by the opposition, not because we have played them off the park (the Wolves and Chelsea games being two good examples).
I don’t assume to have superior knowledge (but thanks for thinking I have), I’m just a MASSIVE Villa fan who is hugely deflated by our current situation. But I do wonder how I (and many others) have noticed these things and yet nothing has changed come the next match day. I wasn’t against AMC taking the job (don’t give a rats ass that he used to be Blues manager), but I haven’t seen anything that indicates he can takes us forward.
Oh and to come back to the first point (AMC = moron) he did describe us as “international class” in the first half against Arsenal! Seriously???
Now I’m pretty certain this considered response kind of excludes me from ‘running close to being a moron’, so perhaps you would like reply to the last sentence in my original message?
ta
OK. Now let’s take a look at that analysis. The problem with our shape is (mostly) down to the personnel we have. We don’t have a DM who is strong enough and mobile enough to provide proper protection for the back 4, and our wide men don’t track back or tackle properly.
This, in my opinion, is why McCleish seems to prefer Herd there as the best of what he has at his disposal, and while he has been injured the normal line up is with both Stan and Clark sat in front of the back 4.
I don’t accept that the long ball is AMs tactic. just watch him go apoplectic when dunne or Collins (main culprit iIMO) do it.
As for luck. What about the luck when we lost herd to a wrongful dimissal against Wolves. What about the clear penalty denied against QPR. It’s easy to pick individual instances and say that applies as a generality.
I probably come across as a real McCleish fan. This I am not. I jut have to recognise that is unfair to judge him when he is hampered by things beyond his control. Bothe Petrov and Given have come out in his defence in the last week. hey, what do they know? They don’t need to do this, they could just keep their heads down and let AM take the flak.
On the “international class” comment, I recall MON describing Ash as “world class” after his game at Everton away. did that make him a moron or just guilty of over-exaggeration?
OK you don’t come across as a moron. I just took exception to your use of the word to describe AM, primarily because it is untrue.
trust me, I’m every bit as frustrated as you or any other Villa fan. i just think it is too early to judge, particularly since I’ve seen us play some decent stuff. Even ny 14 year old son noticed that we didn’t knock the ball long against QPR.
Oh and forgot to add in there ref Clark and Petrov it is stifling our attacking play (generally) as they both look at each other when we are going forward unsure what to do (as in the first half against QPR). In the second half they were virtually camped in QPRs half. My guess is that AM told them to do that at half time rather than they suddenly decided it for themselves,but it is only a guess.
Alex MCLeish’s Claret and Blue army !!!!! …. lmao
In response to Jaymo, and others who are criticizing McLeish. On Sunday watch the game and ask yourselves this series of questions:
1. Who is the captain on the pitch and how does he manifest this leadership?
2. Who is the leader of the “defensive 5″ and how does he work with the rest of his defensive team to organize in both active play and in defensive set plays? Who is goading his colleagues into position? Who is pushing the defense out? Who is the anchor for the back-line around which the others are formed?
3. When a “young player” comes into the team, who is giving him the guidance and encouragement on the pitch? Who pats him on the back for a good play and who has the passion to scream at him for a howler?
4. Who is actually listening to McLeish during play and passing on the instructions? Surely you would expect to see the captain ensuring a message gets passed around?
A lot of people have pointed out the way in which Keane has been seen getting frustrated with he colleagues. Watch how he points them into space and tells them when the have messed up. In essence the team has no captain on the pitch and no leader in defence. When we lost Milner we lost a lot more than his engine, we lost his ability to motivate his team mates.
Dunne and Collins might have big mouths when they are off the pitch and are prepared to have a go at an old-man in a haotel bar but when it comes to having the balls to lead on the pitch then they’re both packing a pair of shrivelled walnuts. Would I want to be in the trenches with one of the Villa’s defense – no way. Although, as one of Hutton’s biggest critics I would suggest that he has improved significantly in the last couple of games.
In essence, it matters little what McLeish might say to them because the defense, as a unit, haven’t got the balls to “man up” and take responsibility for their collective and continual failures and there is no captain on the pitch who is prepared to take a captain’s playing role and responsibilties. I really believe that Keane was brought in to encourage leadership on the pitch as much as score goals.
“are prepared to have a go at an old-man in a haotel bar”
Just to clarify, GH wasn’t even there when it kicked off.
I’m not defending them, but they were having a go about him, not at him.
I was aware of that. “having a go at him” is just a figure of mine, and may others, idiosyncratic speech pattern. But if it’s good enough for the Daily Telegraph headline writers “Unions use NHS reforms to ‘have a go at Government’, says Lansley” then it’s good enough for me. I do apologize for spelling “hotel” (that’s; an hotel) incorrectly.
and even the Independent used the same wording (just in case you see it s right-wing bias) …..
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/unions-use-nhs-reforms-to-have-a-go-at-government-says-lansley-6292256.html
But the way you said it inferred that he was present.
I always thought it was “a” hotel, LOL
You can tell it’s Friday afternoon can’t you?
I hate Sunday afternoon games
With you on the Sunday afternoon business, It’s just the worst. All for Sky. It used to be great when almost everyone kicked off at 3pm on a saturday so you could look at the table at 5pm and know where you stood.
If I tell you that “an hotel” vs “a hotel” is a shibboleth it might keep you amused on a Friday afternoon if you google it.